Have you chosen salvation by scapegoat? Is that Moral?


Uses it how?


Display it in places of worship…wear it around one’s neck…make the sign of one…


And why is this?


Because jesus was sacrificed on the torture device


The Eastern Church puts a much different emphasis on the meaning of the mystery of the cross and resurrection. Here is one explanation:

. . . God dealt with man’s sin as a hospital rather than a courtroom. Instead of viewing the atonement as Christ paying the price for sin in order to satisfy a wrathful God, Recapitulation teaches that Christ became human to heal mankind by perfectly uniting the human nature to the Divine Nature in His person. Through the Incarnation, Christ took on human nature, becoming the Second Adam, and entered into every stage of humanity, from infancy to adulthood, uniting it to God. He then suffered death to enter Hades and destroy it. After three days, He resurrected and completed His task by destroying death.

This understanding is summarized by St. John Chrysostom in his Paschal homily:

Let no one fear death, for the Savior’s death has set us free. He that was held prisoner of it has annihilated it. By descending into Hell, He made Hell captive. He embittered it when it tasted of His flesh. And Isaiah, foretelling this, did cry: Hell, said he, was embittered, when it encountered Thee in the lower regions. It was embittered, for it was abolished. It was embittered, for it was mocked. It was embittered, for it was slain. It was embittered, for it was overthrown. It was embittered, for it was fettered in chains. It took a body, and met God face to face. It took earth, and encountered Heaven. It took that which was seen, and fell upon the unseen.

O Death, where is your sting? O Hell, where is your victory? Christ is risen, and you are overthrown. Christ is risen, and the demons are fallen. Christ is risen, and the angels rejoice. Christ is risen, and life reigns. Christ is risen, and not one dead remains in the grave. For Christ, being risen from the dead, is become the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. To Him be glory and dominion unto ages of ages. Amen.


Well presented. Thank you.


Re the OP…

Friend, you are neither clever nor original in this:

John 6 addresses those who find the Gospel to be offensive. Consider 6:60-66,

On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”

Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you? Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit[e] and life. Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

This is when Christ turns to the disciples and asks if they will leave too. Their reply “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.”

… was one all those who had gone away because their own morality was offended, or whatever they found it offensive, did not share in.

Maybe later after He had risen from the dead they would remember, understand and repent … maybe some never were saved but having turned away never turned back.

When I first came across this latest thread you posted my response was not immediately to pray for you, because I’m just a man and I too get offended by what I take to be mocking; but, I found I could pray that you repent because it would necessarily mean and end to mocking and the Lord being glorified. Make no mistake about it, in wrath He shall be glorified too, but in Grace it can at least benefit you.

As with those in the passages above the choice is yours. You can be morally outraged and lost because you’re too good for that or you can do the other thing. Your choice.


What does this mean?


Is it really that complex to understand?

Since we are talking about doctrines that offend some folks, Romans 9:22-24 becomes particularly relevant for it presents a hypothetical question:

What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath–prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory – even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

This does not say that the posited state of affairs IS THE state of affairs but only proposes the possibility of it. This passage follows 9:20-21 but it may as well have followed Isaiah 45:9-10 …

"Woe to those who quarrel with their Maker, those who are nothing but potsherds among the potsherds on the ground. Does the clay say to the potter, ‘What are you making?’ Does your work say, ‘The potter has no hands’? Woe to the one who says to a father, ‘What have you begotten?’ or to a mother, ‘What have you brought to birth?’

Romans 3 hits its stride saying,

Obviously, the law applies to those to whom it was given, for its purpose is to keep people from having excuses, and to show that the entire world is guilty before God. For no one can ever be made right with God by doing what the law commands. The law simply shows us how sinful we are.

But now God has shown us a way to be made right with him without keeping the requirements of the law, as was promised in the writings of Mosesi and the prophets long ago. We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ. And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are.

For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard. Yet God, with undeserved kindness, declares that we are righteous. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins. For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he declares sinners to be right in his sight when they believe in Jesus.

Can we boast, then, that we have done anything to be accepted by God? No, because our acquittal is not based on obeying the law. It is based on faith. So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law.

After all, is God the God of the Jews only? Isn’t he also the God of the Gentiles? Of course he is. There is only one God, and he makes people right with himself only by faith, whether they are Jews or Gentiles. Well then, if we emphasize faith, does this mean that we can forget about the law? Of course not! In fact, only when we have faith do we truly fulfill the law.

So what of those who of their own wills do not accept this undeserved kindness? Shall they be forced to benefit from it though they have trampled it underfoot while it was in their power to do so?

Here I’m not speaking of hypothetical people who have never heard the Gospel or had any real knowledge of it, nor am I speaking of young children who are so untaught that they don’t know their right hand from their left, but of people like Americans are whose land has been awash in knowledge of the Gospel, where people try to bear witness of the Gospel … in forums like this.

Scripture is quite clear that we are NOT good enough on our own, as indeed that is the very subject matter of Romans 3:10-18. And it should be clear that us not being good enough on our own is the reason why it is “undeserved kindness”. That it is God’s riches at Christ’s expense is the core of the Gospel.

But is someone refuses to accept the gift they must stand on their own merits … and they cannot. That way ends badly.

So will the Lord be glorified by our praises in light of His giving us a gift we didn’t deserve or will He be glorified because some may end up being the objects of His wrath?

Which applies to us is the choice each of us makes.


You impregnate your wife. Your wife dies giving birth to your child.

Who do you blame? your child _ who never asked to be born and could not help what occurred, or yourself, for creating the child that killed your wife?



Oh, I know people are not rational in times of grief but neither the father nor the baby – nor the mother for that matter because some may try to blame her – are to blame.

The relevant Scripture is from after some folks asked Christ about those Galileans that the Romans had killed. The message was not that bad things happen to bad people, nor really that bad things just happen, but that unless there is repentance “perishing” is what will happen sooner or later.

This thread is about the unmerited gift that was secured because the wrath of God was poured out on the Son. As I quoted earlier: God’s riches at Christ’s expense. Substitutionary atonement is precisely the matter of this thread. The idea offends some people … so what?

Do you think a newborn baby is going to be so corrupt and despicable to despise its only chance to live because misfortune in its own specific circumstances was involved in its birth?

Sure, in self pity later on they might, or maybe the father was a miserable bitter pill about it their whole life, but that would simply be expressions of ingratitude. If for life itself or for the time they did share and the very real and tangible part of her and the love she had that remained … either way it is ingratitude. Much less than she deserved.

So what about the gratitude that Christ deserves?


The idea needs some correction. Jesus taught us how to live. He did not teach us to live in sin while believing in him because he would take our punishment. Sin keeps us apart from God. Christ mission was to draw us closer to God–i.e. to turn away from sin and towards God. Strive with all one’s heart to do this, and your failures/your sins will be forgiven. NOT because Jesus was punished for your sins but because he taught you that God desires love and mercy from you–not burnt offerings. Jesus brought us love and mercy–and that is why he, not a burnt offering, is the perfect sacrifice.


No, I wrote correctly. You are inserting something else in that I was not addressing.

Works do not save.

If someone is saved then they can have works that may result in rewards. These are, or so I’m convinced, the works that are described as being those that pass through the fire but even we were talking the works that cannot survive the fire (all those are wood, hay and stubble – more on that in a moment) the saint is not lost.

But no amount of works, even those that seem really good, will do for the lost what the blood of Christ does when applied. Christ used the idea of being born again, of being born by the power of the spirit. The saints are “live births” out of this age. The finally lost are spiritually stillborn. Babies have no bragging rights just for being born. Only living children can learn to emulate.

That said the flesh is all too apparently perfectly willing to ape works of the spirit if that means it stays in control. Even when someone is born again the old body of death will ape the better manners of the spirit if that’s what it takes to get the redeemed to pay attention to it. I will maintain that it is these fleshly works, ones which are not out of obedience to the Holy Spirit but are just the child doing his or her own thing that seems right which are the wood, hay and stubble referenced.

There’s an old story about a young preacher that I like to illustrate this. After preaching his heart out the grizzled old country parson cornered him to ask if he was sent or did he just went. Imitation works are when we just went.


We are not talking about what works can or cannot do, which is beside the point in the first place. I am talking about being a disciple of Christ, and doing what Christ called us to do–i.e. to discern the will of the Father and to follow it. Christ also called for us to help those we are in contact with whenever they are in need of anything. In other words, we are called to work. Works, on the other hand, are not called to “save.” Discipleship is a discipline–a way of living, the narrow way of following Christ and this often requires work, not to mention following Christ as we work.

God redeems us and draws us into salvation. We are his servants and we work for Him.

Or another way of putting it: Does your work pay you, or does your employer pay you? In the same way, we are servants of God and it is God who rewards. We are told His rewards are equal for those who worked a long day for Him and for those who worked even part of an hour.


Again, discipleship only comes after receiving the gift. When I posted “If someone is saved then they can have works that may result in rewards.” that was a reference to discipleship. Ditto with writing “Only living children can learn to emulate.”

(Edit … again … darn refresh)

Okay, once again, while we’re at it, I would point out that accepting the gift of salvation isn’t exactly like being physically born and a physical baby is not also described as doing the work of being born. But accepting the gift is described as a “work” in Scripture (I.e. the work is to believe). So I would opine that every person who has actually believed in the proper way (it would be a whole other thread to discuss what are

(Refresh again …this thing is out to get me!)

So what got erased?


… wrong sorts of believing in Christ under some different gospel than the only Gospel delivered once for all time) has an imperishable “work” attributed to them as part of the gift itself.

I just wanted to add that. As I believe you would agree it is theone “work”, to begin to be a disciple at all, that all disciples have.


I know! So frustrating, isn’t it?

Then we seem to agree on works. I think the problem arose hundreds of years ago with poor Martin Luther, who truly did have a tough childhood. He worked so hard to please everyone, and this followed him into his adult life where he felt he also had to work hard to please God. He thought he was supposed to earn his way to heaven. Then, one day he finally got what Paul was saying, and he kinda went overboard in the other direction, but then who can blame him? Middle ground is often so hard to find.


Your own bible refutes this.

Read John 12;39 40 and see that God negates the free will you say he gives.

Tell us, when your God tortured King David’s baby for 7 days before finally murdering it, was he respecting his free will that would not want to be tortured and murdered?



Same with God hardening pharoah’s heart so the Jews wouldn’t be set free until after 10 plagues had been sent. No free will for pharaoh there.



You seem to ignore that Jesus/Yahweh, God to you, said he came to serve and not be served.

Why would you want to serve one who wants to serve?

You go against what God wants.



Death is still with us, in case you have missed that fact.

As to the notion of a second Adam, are you happy and agreeing that if Jesus was born of a virgin Marry and Yahweh, an androgynous God, then Jesus, like all parthenogenetic birth, would have been genetically female all of his life.