Have you chosen salvation by scapegoat? Is that Moral?


And because your methods turn people off rather than “saving them”, you are costing God worshippers. He’s not happy about that. I fear your rung of hell will be a bit lower down than the top “slightly warm” rung. For costing God worshippers, you’ll probably go to the very bottom rung!


I’m anxiously waiting for the Christians on this forum to call out optrader for talking about Hell. Atheists arent allowed to that here…


Let optrader do the eternal torturing. Maybe he can find enjoyment torturing an atheist pediatric doctor that saved 100s of lives throughout his her career. “Morality”


It’s so “moral” to torture people for eternity because they dont believe a 2000 year old mythology


Since when?


I’m referring to all the posts about how atheists “misrepresent” christianity by talking about the devil and hell and therefore should shut it!


If you don’t think Jesus’s choosing to endure and conquer death for our sake was a sacrifice, you should educate yourself on the physiological process of crucifixion:



I’m a Christian on this forum. I have a different view of Hell than Optrader’s (or yours). I won’t “call him out” on it, as it’s not my place to sit in judgement on his beliefs (or on yours). I believe that Hell is simply eternal separation from God. Having personally experienced God’s forgiveness and love, I think “fire and brimstone” is unnecessary - separation would be sufficient cause for teeth-gnashing.

I will say he has no business condemning you or anyone. That is most definitely NOT his place. Many of my brothers and sisters disagree. Some of the more vociferous ones have mega-ministries or television shows. Some of them even think they know God’s choice for President. They are wrong.

Christians are not a homogeneous ideological bloc, anymore than atheists or agnostics are. Many of us have no problem with the paradox of “the narrow path” versus the existence and validity of other belief systems - that’s just another question to ask God if and when I get the chance.

I’m a Democrat. Not because I support abortion - I’m troubled by the reality of it, but I’ve decided that the choice is not mine to make for another. Not because I think capitalism is inherently evil, anymore than socialism is. I do think that the exercise of my faith requires me, and the society I support, to care for widows and orphans, for the sick and poor.

I DO believe that atheists are permitted, and entitled, to express their beliefs here. A compelling case can be made for many widely-accepted systems of belief, and we all are (or should be) welcome to evaluate and choose among them. I could no more talk a lifelong Buddhist out of his religion than he could talk me out of mine. It’s a belief system that I have chosen to accept, literally, on faith. Works for me. Best of luck to you on your journey.


Fair enough. I think the concept of eternal punishment and torture is the worst form of suffering imaginable, and that no loving God would allow it if someone simply did not believe. Even if “hell” is eternal “separation”, it diesnt follow that such separation ought to necessitate torment and torture.


Hello Meri! Blessings to you and your family, hope all is great in your world. I have to disagree, Christianity can be watered down because we are fallen. Yes, the love of Christ is part of the Gospel. I don’t believe we can truly understand the depth of His love for us, but the warning of sin, and the penalty for it is the other part of the Gospel, they go together. Too many churches today no longer preach against sin because it isn’t a popular message and turns people ( and the money they bring in) away. Jesus never turned a blind eye to what people were doing, He never compromised with sin and He spoke as often of Hell as heaven. The message hasn’t gained popularity over time…


And that aligns with my perspective on other faiths. A strict interpretation of scripture holds that, if a person is told the Good News, and refuses to change their beliefs and behavior accordingly, he is damned. So any Jew (or Muslim, or Hindu) who has held that faith for decades and is unmoved to accept my alternative reality is doomed, even as I acknowledge that his impassioned testimony is just as unlikely to sway me. I don’t understand how or why that dissonance exists. It seems that the choice should be between the Truth and Nothing. Not between this Truth and that Truth, both of which have developed over centuries, and been devoutly held by their adherents and passed to their children.

Oh well, guess I won’t get an answer in this life.


Why should people be “eternally doomed”? Why wouldnt a loving God punish them relatively for their temporary life, via temporary punishment, and at end of said punishment, give another shot? I only have hopefully 75 years on this planet - theres been 100s if not 1000s of religions. I get 75 years, but if I “fail” I’m damned for eternity? Seems extremely unjust and harsh - not loving.


Happy New Year, Optrader! Blessings to you and yours as well.

One of the messages Jesus taught is that we are the salt of the earth, the light on the hillside, the light that should not be hidden under a bushel basket. He taught forgiveness of sins, and that we should show others the love that he shows us.

Christ warned also about anger we hold against our brother–that this anger becomes like a fire in a city dump that continually burns within us. Thus, he encouraged us to forgive others of the wrong-doings they commit against us.

As you know, we Catholics believe in the confession of sins, and we confess and admit to our guilt during every Mass–both on Sundays and during the week. Therefore, I am not saying we should ignore sins as if they do not exist, but rather face up to them, seek forgiveness, and resolve to do better.

And, I agree. Always we should be aware that we will face God’s judgement–but not to the point where it eclipses the love and encouragement God sends to all as we face the challenges of a fallen nature in a fallen world.


The Catholic Church points to several things in this regard: First, there is the eternal covenant God has with those of the Jewish faith. Second is Paul’s statement that those who do not believe will be judged by their own hearts. Third, the warning is for those who not only hear, but who also accept the Good News, but then turn from it. This can be connected to what Jesus said about seed scattered on the hard path, in this soil, among thorns. Finally, since judgement is God’s, not one of us can tell anyone he/she is damned. The Catholic Church’s warning is that they are in danger of damnation, not that they are damned.


Thanks for the thoughtful reply. The “strict interpretation” is one I received as a new Christian from my evangelical pastor.

You mentioned Paul’s statement that unbelievers will be judged by their own hearts. That seems fair, even in the face of doctrine that holds that all have sinned, and that the wages of sin is death. I don’t insist on finding reasonable explanations for the paradoxes I find in my faith, but I’d like to. It’s unreasonable to think that a lifelong Muslim must be persuaded by the Good News, or risk eternal damnation. It may be true, but it seems unreasonable. It seems unreasonable to expect that an adult traumatized by childhood abuse driven by toxic faith (and yes, that exists) can be expected to accept the love of the God they were conditioned to distrust.

I believe, rightly or wrongly, that the God who has shown me such love and grace would not allow circumstances to make it unreasonably hard (if not impossible) for the people I mentioned above to accept that same love. There has to be a path to eternal salvation for them, and not necessarily the same path I’ve followed. Heresy perhaps, and I certainly don’t have the solution, but it’s what I believe.


I CAN NOT SAVE ANYONE!! I also can’t keep anyone from being saved… I can not in any way, shape or form interfere in a person’s choice of worship and/relationship ( or not) of God!!! Heaven or Hell are choices WE EACH AS INDIVIDUALS MAKE!!! I don’t know how I can be more clear.


**[quote=“ImRightYoureWrong, post:44, topic:83236, full:true”]
I’m anxiously waiting for the Christians on this forum to call out optrader for talking about Hell. Atheists arent allowed to that here…

Ok, I haven’t done much posting in this forum, but a lot in the old so maybe I’m missing something here but: This is the RELIGION forum isn’t it??

Are Christians NOT allowed here? If we are, are we not allowed to mention God, Jesus, Heaven or Hell, you know, some of the major things about the Christian religion? What topics may Christian people talk about?


No. God chooses to send us there. If I torture my child because she diesnt believe in santa that’s not her “choice”


Of course you’re allowed to post here. Please. Keep posting how much everyone will suffer eternal torture and torment for not believing what you believe


There is some truth in this, given that the wise man will say it out laud because he will want to reduce the harm that supernaturalstupid thinking has brought to us.